We started talking about this during Sunday School, but ran out of time. Tell us about what you believe about baptism, how you were baptized, and how you understand it relates to your faith today....
So let me take a stab at my own question. I was raised Baptist, and for us, baptism was an outward sign to your church members that you have accepted Christ as your Savior and that your old self has died (the dunking) and that you have been born anew in Christ (the raising back up). I was "dunked" by my father (a Baptist minister) in Alexandria, Louisiana. I drug my feet after accepting Christ on January 31, 1981. I didn't go forward in church for a long time, and it wasn't until we moved to Louisiana in 1983 that I went forward with my whole family to join Calvary Baptist Church. I really understand this public profession of faith although I don't agree with the Baptist "rules" that don't allow you to join the local church until you've been baptized. But then again, I don't agree with several things that I learned as a kid.
I have a new understanding for saved by Grace. I was raised United Mathodist and was baptized or sprinkled as a child. My understanding of why it can be done as an infant is because it is a symbol of God's prevenient grace which happens before salvation. When a child is baptized in a church, the church shares the responsibility with the family to raise and nuture the child in Christian faith. Then, the child makes their own individual affirmation later in life during their confirmation. But, when I think about the people in my life who have shaped my Christian walk, I don't just think of my family. I think of Chere Flanagan, who was my 2- year old Sunday School Teacher as well as my Youth SS teacher, and my Disciple Class teacher for three years. I think of Emily Patterson who never had any children of her own but owned me and my Christian faith. I appreciate the commitment of the church to make that investment in me. That commitment was made public during my infant baptism.
I was raised in several different churches. I was baptized in a baptist church, but spent most of my later years in a non-denominational church.
Both of these believed in an infant DEDICATION, in which the parents stand before the church with the child and commit to raising that child in a Christian household – the church then responded with their commitment, as a christian family and support structure for this child, to help the parents in every way they could to raise that child in a christian environment. Later in life (after the infant dedication) came baptism (by submersion). I don't get caught up in the difference of sprinkling and dunking, by the way – I don't think there is anything that says you're baptism isn't valid if you are sprinkled vs. dunked.
I feel very strongly about a child being DEDICATED when they are too young to commit their OWN lives to Christ, and admit their sins and have them "washed away" through baptism. Baptism is an outward showing that you recognize your sins and are confessing them to be washed away and forgiven. A child of less than a year cannot do this.
HOWEVER... The fact that the United Methodist church supplements infant Baptism with Confirmation, makes me feel a little bit better. I love that "tweens" go through confirmation classes (similar to the Catholic structure) and learn about what their faith means in their life, and then stand before the church and commit to a walk with God. I think this is a wonderful practice, and in many ways is similar to being baptized as a young adult. Because of this, I would say I am OKAY with infant baptism (in the United Methodist setting). If the church did not have confirmation, I would not be okay with infant baptism. I believe it's very important for a Christian to recognize and profess their faith outwardly at an age where they can understand (themselves, not the parents understanding on their behalf) what it means to be a Christian.
Yikes...I'm not sure that I could ever answer all of the questions above in a way that would do the subject proper credence! However, for the sake of discussion, I will try!
Personal experience: I was baptized as a baby in the church my parents attended. However, they moved when I was a four to a new home and I did not attend church again until I was in high school. There have been times in my life when I wish that I could have been baptized later so that I could experience it (in some churches they have remember (not rebaptism) your baptism days so I have had opportunity). However, I think that is because I missed out on the community of faith, confirmation and other aspects of the church community growing up. Had I grown up in the church, I believe that I would have always valued the gift of the church community that had been given to me through baptism. Alas, I will never know.
Biblical Understanding: My understanding of baptism is that it is a means of grace, a way that God shows his love to us. I really appreciate the way that the United Methodist Church understands baptism and communion as a way to show God’s grace towards us. In this way, what God has done is emphasized over any act that we as humans could take. God’s choosing of us, God’s calling us to Himself is seen as more important than our choice to follow him. This does not take away the need for us to eventually make the decision for ourselves at some point later in our lives. Baptism does not equal salvation. It simply shows that God loves you and has forgiven you of your sins before you are able to acknowledge it.
Infant Baptism: Speaking of receiving God’s grace, baptizing infants is one way that we experience God’s prevenient grace in our lives. God works in our lives and calls us to himself even before we have chosen to follow God. There are multiple instances in Scripture that show families that were baptized and it is widely assumed that this includes infants and children (Acts 16:15, Acts 16:33, 1 Cor. 1:16). We also have many verses that discuss Jesus/God calling children a part of the kingdom of God.
"For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him" (Acts 2:39) This verse assumes our understanding of God’s call to himself as separate from our receiving of God’s call in our life.
"Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, ‘Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God’"
Sprinkle, dip, submerge: Personally, I don’t think it matters at all and I think the argument fcor one or the other is one of the dumbest things that Christians can fight over! Discussions of infant baptism and other aspects show your understanding of yourself and of God. However, fussing over the means of baptism is just silly. I don’t think God really cares! Anyway, we always think of John the Baptist, baptizing in the river and Jesus being baptized in the river. Matthew 3:6 talks about thousands coming to be baptized. It is thought that John could not have possibly submerged all of them in the river but more likely they stood on the banks, as John passed by and sprinkled water on them.
To be completely honest, I don't think much about my baptism today (unless we are contemplating it in Sunday School). I don’t really think that God cares that I am baptized or that my baptism means I am saved (there is thought that many of the disciples were not baptized). I make a choice daily to wake up and follow Jesus.
On the other hand, I think we should have a conversation on traditions next!!
Brothers and sisters - thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on baptism. I can't tell you how wonderful it is to have this conversation. My mother and father chose to have me baptized (via sprinkles) as a baby in the Catholic church, though they rarely attended mass and certainly did not raise me in the church. Please understand that my questioning our traditions and rituals is not to divide. I'm not fussing about one way or another. I'm simply asking why is it that the norm at some churches (such as Mt. Bethel) is to baptize infants, but it doesn't seem to be the norm in the Bible? It is vital to always remember that the most important consideration is our unity in Christ. We must find ways to discuss topics, no matter how emotionally provocative, without using a divisive attitude or divisive language. My pursuit is to live out God's word (or truth) that was delivered to us through Christ - Nicole put it perfectly - to wake up everyday and choose to follow Jesus.
I hadn't really thought much about baptism until I had children of my own. I didn't really think much about it with Brittan as we had her baptized as an infant at Mt. Bethel - that's what everyone does, and sometimes I'm a sheep like that. This past Christmas, we were asked to do a reading out loud to the congregation and light the advent candle. I wondered, "what is this advent candle thing about?" I researched it and found that it was invented by some German dude, and had no Biblical basis. I guess I started thinking more and more about rituals that we do, and wanted to know more about them...hence my questioning the methodist "style" of baptism. I guess it has something to do with the Arminian/Wesleyan doctrine about the God's 3 graces: prevenient, justifying, and sanctifying with an emphasis on prevenient since Wesley teaches that it is there before we are consciously aware of God. It seems like the justifying grace is basically akin to baptism...but this is just theological concept/doctrine.
Soooo...I've done some reading in trying to better understand baptism since it is an elementary teaching (Heb 6:2) of Christianity. It's hard to think of myself maturing in my faith and relationship with God without a firm grasp on the basics. I've consulted only my Bible as I think that's all I really need. Baptism parallels the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. We are buried with Him through baptism into death to be raised to have a new life (Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-12, Gal 3:27). Dunking into the water is like your old self dying and being buried (your old history is entombed, if you will). Being raised is like being resurrected as Christ was, but we are raised up with our sin washed away, renewed with a commitment to Christ. I wonder where sprinkling came from. I'm NOT saying sprinkling is wrong - just curiousity. I'm not sure if John the Baptist did dunk all of those people in the Jordan, it seemed that many impossible things during that time were made possible. He may have had ferocious guns, but the Bible doesn't mention it.
Baptism follows confession of sin, repentance (Mk 1:4, Acts 2:38), reception of the Holy Spirit, and submission to Christ. It is a way of glorifying Jesus (Matt 3:16-17) - the light of Heaven shined down on Jesus after His own baptism - He was glorified, and we glorify Him with our own baptism. Interesting (and unbelievably awesome) that in this event, the trinity or triune God is displayed.
Baptism was around before Jesus (John 1:25, 1 Peter 3:21) as a "pledge of a good conscience toward God." The Pharisees questioned John's baptizing as it was Gentiles who were baptized with their conversion to Judaism. 1 Cor 10:2 states that Israel was baptized into Moses during the exodus out of Egypt.
It is possible to not be baptized, and still be saved (Luke 23:43).
Baptism occurs with water, the Holy Spirit, and with fire (as punishment) (Matt 3:11, Rev 20:14-15)).
There is only one baptism (Eph 4:5).
I found it so interesting what Nicole brought up in Acts 16:15, Acts 16:33, 1 Cor. 1:16. I had never even considered that children were probably baptized. This is perhaps the single most enlightening thing for me that has been posted so far. It's impossible for me to make the argument that infant baptism is dogma after studying those passages.
Obviously, baptism (or any ritual) pales in comparison with regard to importance when you think about the grace and mercy of God, forgiveness, obedience, and love. However to minimize it is to something that "really doesn't matter" disregards Heb 6:2. We need to know the basic, elementary foundations on which our rituals and beliefs are based. Why do we do what we do? Where the heck did this stuff come from? These are the questions that new (and some old) Christians, and nonbelievers ask. We can't just use dogma and personal opinions/feelings to answer them back.
At the end of the day, I can relate to a lot of what Lauren posted. I'll probably hold off on baptizing Bear until he chooses to do so after repenting and receiving the Holy Spirit. Will his salvation be any different than Brittan's? If so, clearly it will not be based on how or when he will go about being baptized. Does this decision, or my pursuit for clarity and truth classify me as a Pharisee? Certainly, I am disqualified because of my love for Jesus.
I so appreciate your thoughts. Let's definitely have a conversation on traditions next.
So let me take a stab at my own question. I was raised Baptist, and for us, baptism was an outward sign to your church members that you have accepted Christ as your Savior and that your old self has died (the dunking) and that you have been born anew in Christ (the raising back up). I was "dunked" by my father (a Baptist minister) in Alexandria, Louisiana. I drug my feet after accepting Christ on January 31, 1981. I didn't go forward in church for a long time, and it wasn't until we moved to Louisiana in 1983 that I went forward with my whole family to join Calvary Baptist Church. I really understand this public profession of faith although I don't agree with the Baptist "rules" that don't allow you to join the local church until you've been baptized. But then again, I don't agree with several things that I learned as a kid.
ReplyDeleteI have a new understanding for saved by Grace. I was raised United Mathodist and was baptized or sprinkled as a child. My understanding of why it can be done as an infant is because it is a symbol of God's prevenient grace which happens before salvation. When a child is baptized in a church, the church shares the responsibility with the family to raise and nuture the child in Christian faith. Then, the child makes their own individual affirmation later in life during their confirmation. But, when I think about the people in my life who have shaped my Christian walk, I don't just think of my family. I think of Chere Flanagan, who was my 2- year old Sunday School Teacher as well as my Youth SS teacher, and my Disciple Class teacher for three years. I think of Emily Patterson who never had any children of her own but owned me and my Christian faith. I appreciate the commitment of the church to make that investment in me. That commitment was made public during my infant baptism.
ReplyDeleteI was raised in several different churches. I was baptized in a baptist church, but spent most of my later years in a non-denominational church.
ReplyDeleteBoth of these believed in an infant DEDICATION, in which the parents stand before the church with the child and commit to raising that child in a Christian household – the church then responded with their commitment, as a christian family and support structure for this child, to help the parents in every way they could to raise that child in a christian environment. Later in life (after the infant dedication) came baptism (by submersion). I don't get caught up in the difference of sprinkling and dunking, by the way – I don't think there is anything that says you're baptism isn't valid if you are sprinkled vs. dunked.
I feel very strongly about a child being DEDICATED when they are too young to commit their OWN lives to Christ, and admit their sins and have them "washed away" through baptism. Baptism is an outward showing that you recognize your sins and are confessing them to be washed away and forgiven. A child of less than a year cannot do this.
HOWEVER...
The fact that the United Methodist church supplements infant Baptism with Confirmation, makes me feel a little bit better. I love that "tweens" go through confirmation classes (similar to the Catholic structure) and learn about what their faith means in their life, and then stand before the church and commit to a walk with God. I think this is a wonderful practice, and in many ways is similar to being baptized as a young adult. Because of this, I would say I am OKAY with infant baptism (in the United Methodist setting). If the church did not have confirmation, I would not be okay with infant baptism. I believe it's very important for a Christian to recognize and profess their faith outwardly at an age where they can understand (themselves, not the parents understanding on their behalf) what it means to be a Christian.
Yikes...I'm not sure that I could ever answer all of the questions above in a way that would do the subject proper credence! However, for the sake of discussion, I will try!
ReplyDeletePersonal experience: I was baptized as a baby in the church my parents attended. However, they moved when I was a four to a new home and I did not attend church again until I was in high school. There have been times in my life when I wish that I could have been baptized later so that I could experience it (in some churches they have remember (not rebaptism) your baptism days so I have had opportunity). However, I think that is because I missed out on the community of faith, confirmation and other aspects of the church community growing up. Had I grown up in the church, I believe that I would have always valued the gift of the church community that had been given to me through baptism. Alas, I will never know.
Biblical Understanding: My understanding of baptism is that it is a means of grace, a way that God shows his love to us. I really appreciate the way that the United Methodist Church understands baptism and communion as a way to show God’s grace towards us. In this way, what God has done is emphasized over any act that we as humans could take. God’s choosing of us, God’s calling us to Himself is seen as more important than our choice to follow him. This does not take away the need for us to eventually make the decision for ourselves at some point later in our lives. Baptism does not equal salvation. It simply shows that God loves you and has forgiven you of your sins before you are able to acknowledge it.
Infant Baptism: Speaking of receiving God’s grace, baptizing infants is one way that we experience God’s prevenient grace in our lives. God works in our lives and calls us to himself even before we have chosen to follow God. There are multiple instances in Scripture that show families that were baptized and it is widely assumed that this includes infants and children (Acts 16:15, Acts 16:33, 1 Cor. 1:16). We also have many verses that discuss Jesus/God calling children a part of the kingdom of God.
"For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him" (Acts 2:39) This verse assumes our understanding of God’s call to himself as separate from our receiving of God’s call in our life.
"Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, ‘Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God’"
Sprinkle, dip, submerge: Personally, I don’t think it matters at all and I think the argument fcor one or the other is one of the dumbest things that Christians can fight over! Discussions of infant baptism and other aspects show your understanding of yourself and of God. However, fussing over the means of baptism is just silly. I don’t think God really cares! Anyway, we always think of John the Baptist, baptizing in the river and Jesus being baptized in the river. Matthew 3:6 talks about thousands coming to be baptized. It is thought that John could not have possibly submerged all of them in the river but more likely they stood on the banks, as John passed by and sprinkled water on them.
To be completely honest, I don't think much about my baptism today (unless we are contemplating it in Sunday School). I don’t really think that God cares that I am baptized or that my baptism means I am saved (there is thought that many of the disciples were not baptized). I make a choice daily to wake up and follow Jesus.
On the other hand, I think we should have a conversation on traditions next!!
This post is on behalf of David Knowles (Part 1):
ReplyDeleteBrothers and sisters - thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on baptism. I can't tell you how wonderful it is to have this conversation. My mother and father chose to have me baptized (via sprinkles) as a baby in the Catholic church, though they rarely attended mass and certainly did not raise me in the church.
Please understand that my questioning our traditions and rituals is not to divide. I'm not fussing about one way or another. I'm simply asking why is it that the norm at some churches (such as Mt. Bethel) is to baptize infants, but it doesn't seem to be the norm in the Bible? It is vital to always remember that the most important consideration is our unity in Christ. We must find ways to discuss topics, no matter how emotionally provocative, without using a divisive attitude or divisive language. My pursuit is to live out God's word (or truth) that was delivered to us through Christ - Nicole put it perfectly - to wake up everyday and choose to follow Jesus.
I hadn't really thought much about baptism until I had children of my own. I didn't really think much about it with Brittan as we had her baptized as an infant at Mt. Bethel - that's what everyone does, and sometimes I'm a sheep like that. This past Christmas, we were asked to do a reading out loud to the congregation and light the advent candle. I wondered, "what is this advent candle thing about?" I researched it and found that it was invented by some German dude, and had no Biblical basis. I guess I started thinking more and more about rituals that we do, and wanted to know more about them...hence my questioning the methodist "style" of baptism. I guess it has something to do with the Arminian/Wesleyan doctrine about the God's 3 graces: prevenient, justifying, and sanctifying with an emphasis on prevenient since Wesley teaches that it is there before we are consciously aware of God. It seems like the justifying grace is basically akin to baptism...but this is just theological concept/doctrine.
David Knowles (Part 2):
ReplyDeleteSoooo...I've done some reading in trying to better understand baptism since it is an elementary teaching (Heb 6:2) of Christianity. It's hard to think of myself maturing in my faith and relationship with God without a firm grasp on the basics. I've consulted only my Bible as I think that's all I really need. Baptism parallels the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. We are buried with Him through baptism into death to be raised to have a new life (Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-12, Gal 3:27). Dunking into the water is like your old self dying and being buried (your old history is entombed, if you will). Being raised is like being resurrected as Christ was, but we are raised up with our sin washed away, renewed with a commitment to Christ. I wonder where sprinkling came from. I'm NOT saying sprinkling is wrong - just curiousity. I'm not sure if John the Baptist did dunk all of those people in the Jordan, it seemed that many impossible things during that time were made possible. He may have had ferocious guns, but the Bible doesn't mention it.
Baptism follows confession of sin, repentance (Mk 1:4, Acts 2:38), reception of the Holy Spirit, and submission to Christ. It is a way of glorifying Jesus (Matt 3:16-17) - the light of Heaven shined down on Jesus after His own baptism - He was glorified, and we glorify Him with our own baptism. Interesting (and unbelievably awesome) that in this event, the trinity or triune God is displayed.
Baptism was around before Jesus (John 1:25, 1 Peter 3:21) as a "pledge of a good conscience toward God." The Pharisees questioned John's baptizing as it was Gentiles who were baptized with their conversion to Judaism. 1 Cor 10:2 states that Israel was baptized into Moses during the exodus out of Egypt.
It is possible to not be baptized, and still be saved (Luke 23:43).
Baptism occurs with water, the Holy Spirit, and with fire (as punishment) (Matt 3:11, Rev 20:14-15)).
There is only one baptism (Eph 4:5).
I found it so interesting what Nicole brought up in Acts 16:15, Acts 16:33, 1 Cor. 1:16. I had never even considered that children were probably baptized. This is perhaps the single most enlightening thing for me that has been posted so far. It's impossible for me to make the argument that infant baptism is dogma after studying those passages.
Obviously, baptism (or any ritual) pales in comparison with regard to importance when you think about the grace and mercy of God, forgiveness, obedience, and love. However to minimize it is to something that "really doesn't matter" disregards Heb 6:2. We need to know the basic, elementary foundations on which our rituals and beliefs are based. Why do we do what we do? Where the heck did this stuff come from? These are the questions that new (and some old) Christians, and nonbelievers ask. We can't just use dogma and personal opinions/feelings to answer them back.
At the end of the day, I can relate to a lot of what Lauren posted. I'll probably hold off on baptizing Bear until he chooses to do so after repenting and receiving the Holy Spirit. Will his salvation be any different than Brittan's? If so, clearly it will not be based on how or when he will go about being baptized. Does this decision, or my pursuit for clarity and truth classify me as a Pharisee? Certainly, I am disqualified because of my love for Jesus.
I so appreciate your thoughts. Let's definitely have a conversation on traditions next.